The column that got him fired.
Friday, 11 April 2008, at 09:43If you haven’t yet heard, Sunday Times columnist, David Bullard, was axed.
Imagine for a moment what life would be like in South Africa if the evil white man hadn’t come to disturb the rustic idyll of the early black settlers.
Ignored by the Portuguese and Dutch, except as a convenient resting point en route to India. Shunned by the British, who had decided that their empire was already large enough and didn’t need to include bits of Africa.
The vast mineral wealth lying undisturbed below the Highveld soil as simple tribesmen graze their cattle blissfully unaware that beneath them lies one of the richest gold seams in the world. But what would they want with gold?
There are no roads because no roads are needed because there are no cars. It’s 2008 and no one has taken the slightest interest in South Africa, apart from a handful of botanists and zoologists who reckon that the country’s flora and fauna rank as one of the largest unspoilt areas in a polluted world.
Because they have never been exposed to the sinful ways of the West, the various tribes of South Africa live healthy and peaceful lives, only occasionally indulging in a bit of ethnic cleansing.
Their children don’t watch television because there is no television to watch. Instead they listen to their grandparents telling stories around a fire. They live in single-storey huts arranged to catch most of the day’s sunshine and their animals are kept nearby.
Nobody has any more animals than his family needs and nobody grows more crops than he requires to feed his family and swap for other crops. Ostentation is unknown because what is the point of trying to impress your fellow citizens when they are not impressible?
The dreaded Internet doesn’t exist in South Africa and cellphone companies have laughed off any hope of interesting the inhabitants in talking expensively into a piece of black plastic. There are no unsightly shopping malls selling expensive goods made by Asian slave workers and consequently there are no newspapers or magazines carrying articles comparing the relative merits of ladies’ handbags.
Whisky, the curse of the white man, isn’t known in this undeveloped land and neither are cigars. The locals brew a sort of beer out of vegetables and drink it out of shallow wooden bowls. Five-litre paint cans have yet to arrive in South Africa.
Every so often a child goes missing from the village, eaten either by a hungry lion or a crocodile. The family mourn for a week or so and then have another child. Life is, on the whole, pretty good but there is something vital missing. Being unaware of the temptations of the outside world, nobody knows what it is. Fire has been discovered and the development of the wheel is coming on nicely but the tribal elders are still aware of some essential happiness ingredient they still need to discover. Praying to the ancestors is no help because they are just as clueless.
Then something happens that will change this undisturbed South Africa forever. Huge metal ships land on the coast and big metal flying birds are sent to explore the sparsely populated hinterland. They are full of men from a place called China and they are looking for coal, metal, oil, platinum, farmland, fresh water and cheap labour and lots of it. Suddenly the indigenous population realise what they have been missing all along: someone to blame. At last their prayers have been answered.
(From here.)
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Friday, 11 April 2008, at 11:17
So he allowed it to be printed, ag shame Mondli can’t read to good. At least his action shows total solidarity with the last paragraph:-
“Suddenly the indigenous population realise what they have been missing all along: someone to blame. At last their prayers have been answered.”
Friday, 11 April 2008, at 11:18
I;m with David on this one, 14 years into the new SA and the place is falling apart and instead of taking it on the chin like honourable men, the government keeps blaming the past. Shame the poor indigieouns tribes … NOT
Friday, 11 April 2008, at 11:34
Argh, I had banned myself from coming to this blog & especially from reading the ridiculous racist comments anymore, but I had to see what today would bring because of the Bullard incident… like fkcing banging my own head countlessly against a wall. I’ll say one thing and then be gone, apologies for the counter-argument to your views….
Why is it white people cannot seem to admit we fucked up? Why do we cling to the arrogance of the Colonial and Apartheid mentality, that us, no no never, we have only done good for here. We haven’t, we have fucked up, and all we can do is mumble a sorry, and then immediately demand that everyone just moves on, and from then on we trivialise the past with bad simplistic jokes.
Forget whether others have or are messing up. When will our race be able to admit we have caused atrocities over the decades that are still felt today due to believing our skin colour made us superior?
Or as someone else has said: “The past can’t be undone and all the world would probably be on a modernization collission course at some point whether colonialisation had happend or not, but I can understand that a lot of blacks are upset that while brutalities that happened in some parts of the world are remembered as periods of great evil (like the holocaust or the Japense invasion of China etc), what went on in colonial africa is often trivialised by Europeans (as Bullard has done here)”
Friday, 11 April 2008, at 11:42
At last, a whitey who shows remorse over the atrocities that took place. Thanks Champagne. Mondli has already conceded to the error that took place by allowing the article to be published.
The biggest problem for us blacks is that we have been too eager to reconcile and too eager to be politically correct and not throw the racist card all over the place for fear of being lambasted by the DA and the whites and that’s why David Bullard’s vitriolic racist trash has gone on for as long as it has.
In a normal society, Bullard should have been fired a long time ago.
Friday, 11 April 2008, at 11:43
ag i think its a sweet little article. i kept imagining butterlflies and yellow sunbirds through the whole thing.
i imagine Mr Bullard to be as racsist as an HIV/Aids worker in a christian primary school!
Friday, 11 April 2008, at 11:57
Mondli should not have allowed this article to be published.
Friday, 11 April 2008, at 12:09
Um . . . don’t get it. A bit fantastical, but correct in a sense. Not rascist though . . . I don’t see any blatant abuse to those of african descent. Begs to ask the question: “Where would the african tribes be today without western exposure?” Taking in account the tribes in africa that cling to their traditional way of life, and have shown no interest in western culture and have therefore continued to exist outside of time, would the rest of africa not remained the same?
Friday, 11 April 2008, at 12:17
I blame it on Van der Walt. It was van der Walt’s fault
Friday, 11 April 2008, at 12:31
Did anyone who watched Van der Walt’s Fault actually enjoy it???
Those of you who have not read Guns, Germs and Steel should do so forthwith.
Friday, 11 April 2008, at 12:32
the article is boring, childish and badly written. But this sort of stuff is never going to stop. It is human nature to look for supremacy, to outdo the next man. To find an excuse why you’re not wrong and the other man is. Whether it is in business, personal life or whole societies, no matter how hard we try we want to get one over the next lot. Hundreds of years ago it was the Hun kicking ass in Europe. The Moors swept into Europe from Africa. The Indians suffered under Islamic invasion. And the Chinese use to get rooted by the tibetans at one point! Hit the 15th century and it was Europe’s chance. Come the 1900’s, a load of infighting happens, and it’s America’s turn. For a split second in 1942, it look like it was Japan’s turn but they couldn’t get it together. Today it’s China. There will always be a top dog and an underdog. But hopefully one day Africa has its turn.
Friday, 11 April 2008, at 12:37
The only mistake made was the “Someone to blame” that was pushing the envelope a bit far.
To Champagne and Pinky, I do tend to agree, we “whities” did some nasty stuff. Then also take that as a broad generalisation. What about the “whities” who fought side by side with the “blackies”? But how about this. The new generation which has had EVERY opportunity that the whites have, what right do they have to be upset? Move forward. Solve the problems. Don’t blame them. Figure out how to make it NOT happen again. In some ways, the new South Africa is heading in the towards inverted apartheid. Policeies need to be re-looked at and adapted as time goes on. What I believe the columnist was trying to get at is “Look forward, solve the problems, don’t point fingers.” I agree with that. He pushed the envelope a bit far, and for that the Editor should have slapped him on the wrist before publishing it. Take responsibility and accountability (http://www.beyondyournose.com/post/8).
Friday, 11 April 2008, at 12:56
Sarah - the only funny part was when he said “And that is the aangenaaide broer”
Friday, 11 April 2008, at 13:18
SO then, according to some of these responses, Black people should be happy that white ppl came? I dont get it…
it happened because it inevtiably would have happened sooner or later… now if someone makes a remark at saying that someone should not be honest and say that them white folks back then should not be blamed, is is is…. is
Friday, 11 April 2008, at 13:32
No black people should stop blaming white people. I’m sorry for what happened, there wasn’t much I could do as I was about 10 years old, and I;m really beginning to irritated when everything from Eskom’s breakdown to the spead of AIDS is laid at the feet of the white people, while black politicians and bosses continue to give themselves huge bonusses and increases. If each politician cut his or her humungous salary by just 10 % imagine how much money we’d have to put elsewhere like saving AIds orphans, or building houses
Friday, 11 April 2008, at 14:21
I think this article is less racist and more just stupid. To simplify historical events to this extent has the singular effect of propping up the views of equally stupid people. Personally, I think firing someone for having an opinion seems a sad place for a newspaper to get to. Anyone who can’t dismiss this piece on their own for the bullshit it is is not going to be adversely affected by this piece.
It definitely doesn’t rank as “hate speech” so I’m not sure on what grounds he should have been fired. Stupidity appears not to be a fireable offence. Unfortunately, I might add.
Friday, 11 April 2008, at 16:07
Where was Pinky looking when it was reported in the media (TV included) that the Black Journalists banned whites from attending the Zuma talk with them (attending as as journalists - who report on events like that)…
Was that not racism? Or, is it only racism if a whitey does it? When blacks do such deeds (in action or in words) I suppose then this is “corrective action”… After all, we have affirmative action )which was followed by affirmative shopping) and it now seems we have corrective action…
Friday, 11 April 2008, at 16:15
Abbey Makoe of the FBJ has resigned from the SABC. Wonder if it’s coincidence.
Friday, 11 April 2008, at 16:47
Is this racist seen as though it was written by a black
Written by Idang Alibi
Thursday, 25 October 2007
A few days ago, the Nobel Laureate, Dr James Watson, made a remark that is now generating worldwide uproar, especially among the blacks. He said what to me looks like a self-evident truth. He told The Sunday Times of London in an interview that in his humble opinion, black people are less intelligent than the White people.
Since then, some of us cannot hear anything else but the outrage of black people who feel demeaned by what Watson has said. So many people have called the man names. To be expected, some have said he is a racist. Some even wonder how a “foolish” man like Watson could have won the Nobel Prize. Even white people who, deep in their heart, agree with Watson want to be politically, correct so they condemn the man.
Why are we blacks becoming so reactive, so sensitive to any remarks, no matter how well-meaning, about our failure as a race? Why are we becoming like the Jews who see every accusation as a manifestation of anti-Semitism? I do not know what constitutes intelligence. I leave that to our so-called scholars. But I do know that in terms of organising society for the benefit of the people living in it, we blacks have not shown any intelligence in that direction at all. I am so ashamed of this and sometimes feel that I ought to have belonged to another race.
Nigeria my dear country is a prime example of the inferiority of the black race when compared to other races. Let somebody please tell me whether it is a manifestation of intelligence if a people cannot organise a free, fair and credible election to choose who will lead them. Is it intelligence that we cannot provide simple pipe-borne water for the people? Our public school system has virtually collapsed. Is that a sign of intelligence? Our roads are impassable. In spite of the numerous sources that nature has made available to us to tap for energy to run our industries and homes, we have no steady supply of electricity. Yet electricity is the bedrock of industrialisation. When you agree with the school of Watson, some say you are incorrect because all these failures are a result of poor leadership. Why must it be us blacks who must always suffer poor leadership? Is that not a manifestation of unintelligence?
In the name of international trade, bilateral co-operation, globalisation and other subterfuges, the norm in the world today is for smart people to appropriate the wealth of other people for themselves and their countries. But more among the blacks than any other race, the practice is to steal from their own country and salt away to other people’s country. Is it intelligence that our leaders steal billions of naira and hide in other people’s country?
Anywhere in the world today where you have a concentration of black people among other races, the poorest, the least educated, the least achieving, and the most violent group among those races will be the blacks. When indices of underdevelopment are given, black people and countries are sure to occupy the bottom of the ladder. If we are intelligent, why do we not carry first when statistics of development are given?
Look at the African continent. South Africa is the most developed country because of the presence of whites there. This may be an uncomfortable truth for many of us but it exists nevertheless. If the whites had been driven away after independence, we would have seen a steady decline of that country.
In terms of natural endowment, Africa ought to be the richest of the continents but see the mess we have made of the potential for greatness which God in his infinite wisdom has bestowed upon us. We have proved totally incapable of harnessing the abundant natural resources to become great. Today, there is a renewed scramble for the wealth of Africa. China, our new “friend”, does not bother about the genocide against fellow blacks in the Sudan by the Arabs who control the affairs of that country. They say they do not want to interfere in the internal affairs of any country. All they want is the oil in Sudan to run their industries. Yet, we blacks have not seen the Chinese action as an affront to our sensitivities. Every race takes us for granted because we are so weak and so foolish, if you permit me to say it.
I am really pained by our gross underachievement as a race. Instead of regarding bitter truths expressed by the likes of Watson as a wake-up call for us to engage in sober reflection, we take to the expression of woolly sentiment. For me, this type of reaction is a further evidence of our unintelligence. A man of intelligence recognises genuine criticism against him and takes steps to improve himself in order to prove his critics wrong. But for us blacks, our reaction is to abuse the man who expresses worries about our backwardness.
Other races are deeply worried about us because we are a problem to the world. We suffer from the five Ds: disorderliness, debts, diseases, deaths and disasters. Our disorderliness affects others or else they won’t be too bothered about us. Many are afraid because our diseases could infect them. Polio has been eradicated all over the world yet it is still found in Nigeria here. When they give us money to help us eradicate it, our thieving officials will embezzle the money; the virus will spread and endanger the health of not only our people but other people as well.
Out of a shared sense of humanity, some cannot bear to see how we die in thousands almost every day from clearly preventable diseases and causes. For years now, our people die extremely painful but perfectly preventable deaths from buildings which collapse because they were poorly constructed. How can you tell me we are as intelligent as others when we set traps for ourselves in the name of houses and others do not do so? Some people are extremely frustrated about us. If they have a way of avoiding us, they will be too glad to do so because we are a problem.
As I write this, I do so with great pains in my heart because I know that God has given intelligence in equal measure to all his children irrespective of the colour of their skin. The problem with us black people is that we have refused to use our intelligence to organise ourselves socially and politically.
It should worry us that we do not invent things. We do not go to the moon. Our societies are not well-organised. We have the shortest lifespan of all the races. Something must be wrong with us. Why are we not like others? Our scholars will be quick to say that these are not the only ways of measuring intelligence. They will quote other scholars to adumbrate their point, but the fact remains that we are not showing intelligence. Others are showing it more than we’re doing. If they are not more intelligent than we are, let someone tell me how to put it. God himself must be frustrated with his black children. They must be an embarrassment to him. He has given us everything he has given to other of his children; why are his black children not manifesting their own gift?
A few years ago, the whites used to contemptuously call the Japanese “little Japs”. Today, the Japanese and other Asians have pulled themselves up by the bootstrap and have arrived. No one speaks of the Japanese or Asians with contempt anymore. When people like Watson speak about us in unedifying terms, we should take it as a challenge to prove them wrong by sitting down to plan how we can become world-beaters.
If our political leaders are the reason for our backwardness, we should resolve to get the kind of leaders who will be instrument for our rapid progress. I may not know how intelligence is measured but my limited knowledge of intelligence is that it can also be measured by the kind of leaders a people decide to have. If, for instance, our professors preside over the massive rigging of elections, it means that we do not have very intelligent professors. Such rigged elections will no doubt produce unintelligent leaders. Such unintelligent leaders will do stupid things which will prove that we are not as intelligent as other races. Do I sound confusing or intelligent?
I am ready for some of our ‘patriotic’ intellectuals who will write and abuse me for the ‘outrage’ I have expressed here but I stick to my guns: we lack intelligence and as stated in the Bible, anyone who lacks intelligence should cry unto God who is the custodian of wisdom to bestow some upon him. We should go on our knees today and ask God why we do not appear as intelligent as our other brothers. I am confident God will reveal to us what we must do, and urgently too, to change our terribly unflattering circumstances.
Friday, 11 April 2008, at 17:15
mmmmh…interesting views….
what if a black person would write something about white people locked in Europe
Imagine this…cold winter nights couples snuggled up in bed, breeding children. There is no activity here, the cold weather keeps people in bed. Children run around the streets sniffing cocaine…no animal on site, just cannibals, serial killers and …… comments hidden pendin further investigation on the author
Friday, 11 April 2008, at 18:11
What a great article (Bullard) and response (Gareth). We all want to to find someone to blame, maybe its human nature, maybe it’s a psychological cushion that makes us feel better at night. Rose tinted glasses, the wearer will always see their point of view as right. Every race has an issue with some aspect of another race, this is the way humans are, and nothing is going to change it. Some may pretend to be liberal, but beneath their smiles are thoughts of superiority no matter which race they belong to.
Friday, 11 April 2008, at 18:28
What do you thing was the point of the article?
Friday, 11 April 2008, at 21:37
Oh yay! It’s racism wars again! All I have to say, after now having read the offending article, is that the blame can’t all be placed on the author. Yes, what he wrote was controvercial and possibly shouldn’t have been submitted (or even written), but the fact remains that the editor did allow it to go through.
I know it’s just from the aspect of a high school newspaper, but I acted as the editor for mine for over 2 years, if there was anything offensive (usually towards the teachers) in it, I was the one that got into shit for passing it through, no one on the staff; not even the person that submitted it. Because as the editor of a publication you take responsibility for what’s in said publication. It’s the same as being a manager, if your productivity is down; you don’t blame it on the layabout worker, you take steps to ensure the layabout does his or her job or otherwise face dismissal. Mondli could have very easily rejected the column and warned David that his writing could cause crap and that further production of offensive material would put his column in jeopardy. Jeremy’s had cartoons rejected, why should articles be any different?
As to the article’s contents, I’m too tired to start the whole debate all over again. Let’s all just agree that it was offensive.
Friday, 11 April 2008, at 23:06
To me, Gareth’s clearly painful aknowledgement of the “black peoples unintelligence” is reminiscent of those times when you’re part of a team, a losing team, and even tho you personally may have given your best you still feel embarrrassed by the loss because the inadequacies of your teammates inevitably reflect on you.
I read Bullards column occasionally and this particular article is pretty much the usual flavour. While I agree that he could have chosen his words with more care and sensitivity, it really is just his opinion expressed somewhat snidely.
Most of us experience feelings of rage and frustration when we find ourselves marginalised by circumstances or situations beyond our control. It’s human to resort to verbal expression of that anger and fear - the pen is mightier than the sword (in the civilised world anyway). Bullard just happens to have a somewhat larger audience than most of us - except maybe our host mr Nell!
Friday, 11 April 2008, at 23:10
Sorry Gareth - I meant the author of the article you posted - Idang Alibi
Saturday, 12 April 2008, at 07:43
Does anyone in our current government really understand the concept of democracy, as formulated by the Greeks so long ago? Do we? Why don’t we all get it then? Zim is NOT a democracy and, unless someone in power IN AFRICA does something or says something about the ludicrous situation - and in so doing the lead the way, Zim will simply continue on the bloody route to poverty and misery, so evident everywhere in Africa, until some foreign power can’t take watching the horror anymore and steps in. But just note that could take a long time and by then all roads to Harare just may be paved in corpes, tears and blood …….. What have we become?
Saturday, 12 April 2008, at 09:43
Putting racism, democracy, apartheid, affirmative action and all those things we South Africans love to cling to aside - does anyone have anything to say about China?
Saturday, 12 April 2008, at 10:39
Racism, shmacism. Why are the only racists remarks the ones made by whites about blacks, but not the other way round?
I don’t give a hoot if some black guy makes a racist remark about me, because I know who I am. I know where I come from. I know who my ancestors were, and I am proud of it. There is nothing he can say that will cause me to shout ,racist! I could go to a 700 year old town in Holland and show my kids this is where the first ‘van Schalkwijk’ lived. Show me one black that could do the same,(obviously not in Europe but in native Africa).
David Bullard was fired for writing a satirical article, that has nothing to do with racism. I, myself, has long wondered what Africa would have looked like if the Europeans never came here. Bring Bullard back! Long live freedom of the press.
Saturday, 12 April 2008, at 15:30
PHEW - it s just got hectic. I think this racism thing is insane. Why can we not all come to the only true conclusion that there is no difference between black and white and yellow and red? We all have the same mother and we cannot blame our socialisation all the time. Shit, there were unfair opportunities in the extreme in South Africa! Fact. The whites of the day were as inhumane as the nazi’s in their day and the americans (to the indians, the brits, the africans - I mean, what is slavery?) and the spaniards (to the aztecs) and the brits (to almost every nation in the world that pissed them off - including the afrikaners where they specialised in murdering women) and the portuguese (to so many african countries that I refuse to list them all) and the french - to the brits and the zillions of african continents that they almost destroyed and the belgians (look around and find out what the did in the congo) - and so I can go on for the rest of the afternoon. I really could. We humans are a disgustingly cruel and brutal race and I often wonder when we are going to turn into the sophisticated beings that we were supposed to be! I get physically sick when I think what my forefathers did and theirs - and what the world is doing today. In the word of GOD nogal!! Now let’s visit Rwanda …….
I will happily sign any document in which the whites can apologise, totally and without any reservation, for the inhumanity and short-sighted actions of their forefathers. Why don’t we swallow our pride and prejudices and just bloody do it . Then we can keep the thing to remind our children never to do this again.
Sunday, 13 April 2008, at 09:53
Jacoba - the thing is we are not the same. We are miles apart in culture, the way we think, the way we do things, the way we look at life. It is that simple
Sunday, 13 April 2008, at 10:03
Ja, Gareth - you are right - of course you are. But what about that tiny thing that makes human beings different to animals? Humanity, we call it - even though it is an inefficient word. Our souls, maybe? But then, who says animals don’t have souls - I’m buggered if I know. That thing that makes me feel intense pain when I see the eyes of those children in Sudan, Zimbabwe - on our streets in the city where I leave every day and I cry - I am educated and I f&%$#cking cry - most irritating - but I thought that was the thing that made us different from animals. That thing that made me realise there WAS God when I looked into the eyes of my babies when they were born and I realised that my life would never ever be the same and that I belonged, totally, to that little thing. Does that not make us feel empathy?????????? Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeze tell me.
Sunday, 13 April 2008, at 10:04
Oops, correction - “city where I live”.
Sunday, 13 April 2008, at 13:54
I found this article amusing and if you have ever traveled into rural areas of our neighboring countries, you will see the pastoral scenes as described by Mr. Bullard, for yourself.
No, him being fired has nothing to do with this article per se but more due to his recent articles, all criticizing the ANC regime, the New South Africa and the Forum of Black Journalists.
Sorry sir, but you are just the latest victim of the new trend to suppress freedom of speech and critique of the ANC.
This spells disaster for the coming Zuma years….
Sunday, 13 April 2008, at 19:31
A truly democratic country allows everyone to air their views knowing that verbal discent and debate is a healthy outlet for venting emotion.
The Sunday Times has insulted the citizens of this country by assuming that we are uneducated and therefore incapable of engaging in verbal debate and listening to all sides of an argument.
If the Sunday Times is aimed at a moronic readership then obviously any intelligent person shall refrain from purchasing that newspaper .
Sunday, 13 April 2008, at 20:01
Well Heather, thank goodness for people like you!!!!! I will not be buying it anymore either - and you are right. You go girl! It seems like we are back to racism again anyway. Everything that is controversial in good ol’ SA always seems to turn into a racist debate - and EVERYTHING is whitey’s fault, you should KNOW that by now! Even if your parents were fighters for the new government and we were all raised not knowing anything about the absolute horror of what was going on. I was living out of the country from the time that I could think like an adult and only returned once there was a representative government. - which makes me a coward, I guess. But I digress, like I seemed to have done quite often in the past two days - we were talking about the reason we all had for buying Sunday times, Mr Bullard, which is gone now, isn’t it. Anyway, I think I got onto the horror of humanity but you and Judy and Joe and Alex and Gareth and Frank II and aby (well, do one then) have given me a welcome lift this newspaperless Sunday.
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 09:40
I am mystified by Frank 11’s argument. The same editor who wrote that Manto is a drunk and a thief would fire Bullard because of ANC pressure? Kak, man.
I have immense respect for Mondli, regardless of whether or not he should have fired DB.
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 09:48
I have read almost every ‘out for lunch’ article in the sunday junk, and quite honestly i found them amusing, but there was something very sinister in this article; I think David Bullard is an angry guy, what with his recent house robbery and shooting incident i can imagine the guy is still suffering from a bit of post-trauma stress. I think we all have a bit of prejudice in us and ja David will hide behind the fact that he was given a brief to be controversial, provocative etc, but what was he commenting on in this particular article? He had no point whatsovea, he just simply said that black people blame white people for everything that has gone wrong in SA. He was racist towards his own race, black people, and the Chinese. David owes SA an apology for this rubbish he wrote, and I am scared for his children and those of other SA who grow up being taught and exposed to such views. Our children grow up reading and listening to bitter SA adults and they grow up to become radicals and racists themselves, that is why those kids made that video at UFS. The question is why do so many white people wona hold on to such ideals, why after all this country has provided for the white citizens and the pardon and kindness of the black people of this country who have built your roads and houses ,dug diamonds out of dark holes for you and raised your children, why are so many of the white people of SA still racist? is it so hard to acknowledge the suffering and damage that was caused by apartheid, how long will this go on for? why Does David feel the need for such provocation? i rate he owes SA an apology.
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 10:27
Isn’t it fascinating how often we see this word ‘racist’ in South African society. The odd part is that it only ever seems to apply to white people.
From what I hear (practically every day) one would get the impression that there is no such thing as a non-white racist.
Government doesn’t do its job, but when a white person criticises them, clearly they are racist - the actual issues never seem to matter. When whites are blamed for anything and everything, it’s not considered racist purely because of, um, what’s that line? Oh yes, ‘injustices of the past’. Weird, isn’t it? The majority of the white population living in this country had nothing to do with these injustices. They were the cause of a corrupt, dictatorial government (rather like the one we have today). Amazing how things turn full circle. Now of course, I have dared to call the current government corrupt, so clearly it must be a race thing - shame on me - I must be a terrible racist.
My point being: there are far more black racists in South Africa then there are white ones. But clearly, as a white, you can’t call a black person racist, because - that, of course, would be racist!
Injustice seems to be something of the past in most people’s eyes - what about the ongoing injustices of today? Oh wait, they don’t count - they’re just payback! Payback to people who had absolutely nothing to do with past injustices.
An eye for an eye makes everyone blind…
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 10:48
Andrew,
First of and foremost lemme start by saying ure an idiot and u argue like a doos. no one has called David Bullard a racist because he critises the government. Bullard’s article was NOT about the government, it was a load of hogwash laced with racist and prejudiced comments about whites, blacks, and chinese people. Some officials in our Government are very corrupt, yes, some of our cops are very corrupt, yes! but Is our current Government like the Apartheid gvt?? i think u need to lay off the crack my friend.
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 11:04
Voudouchilde,
First of all - only stupid people make insults when they can’t give a logical arguement. Try using your brain to make your point - insults don’t carry as good a punch - wit goes far further.
Fact: Bullard has been called a racist on DOZENS of occasions INCLUDING IN THIS VERY FORUM. Where have you been? Have you read above?
And yes, the previous government was dictatorial and so is this one - citizens have no rights here (when it comes to what the governent has decided and just carries out) and what we want is totally ignored by the powers that be. Do I need to give more than Khutsong as an example of this? Because, if so, I have many more…
It’s people like you (that deny the problems of today) that make the country the mess that it currently is in.
I find it interesting that you have no arguement for my point that there can be no such thing as a black racist - fascinating, in fact.
Oh… and, I am neither on crack, nor am I your friend.
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 11:43
And a bright and chirpy morning to you as well! Is it only me, or did you all see the very subtle jab at the Chinese right at the end?
Anyway, the subject is now boring - unless someone can give me a link to Bullards blog. Didnt get my fix this Sunday & am a getting a bit jittery. Like when I cant have two cups of morning. Can we get back to Zim now? This seems to be getting boring, what, ol’ chaps
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 11:46
ooooo Voudouchilde & Andrew!!!! Have we got a bit of scrap here???? Can I mediate??? Do like our president?????
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 11:47
And Voudouchilde - why can’t one have a black racist? Pray enlighten me?
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 11:50
Andrew,
Yeah many people have called Bullard a racist, infact one white colleague of mine has always insisted so, although I always maintained that he was a satirist and he had been given a platform to make controvesial comments etc. But this particular article had no basis or relevance whatsoeva to what is currently going on in SA or the world.
He simply sat at his computer and typed out the most offensive bullshit that came to his mind, and hence exposed himself as an out and out racist, probably the kinda stuff he should have kept to a private audience.
With regards to your statement about black racists, I did comment on it, I said you argue like a doos! of course anyone can be a racist, I know plenty of black racists.
I do not deny the problems of today(Eskom, Telkom, Crime, AIDS, Jacob Zuma etc), and I will never do so. We’ve got many effd up officials in govt, and fortunately we in SA decide who we want in power, and who governs, so go ahead and vote for who-ever you want as a leader.
You have to realise that we all suffer from these issues, inidians, coloreds, blacks, whites, asians, poor, rich and so-on, all south africans suffer. and let me tell you something, black people in SA continue to suffer the most from these problems, I dont care how many well-off white guys would like to argue that black people get all the jobs, and continue to whine about sports selection. black people still continue to die everyday in the townships from violent crime and disease, still live in poverty, still take a crap in a bucket, or by the railway line, we still suffer from bad education and broken down schools. Is it the white man’s fault? not entirely, should we continue to point fingers at white people today? I dont think so.
I think we need to focus on changing the situation in SA and rebuilding our country. 14 years is a short time compared to decades of oppression. this cant be denied. We need to hold our govt to account. no one else will. Articles like the one David Bullard put out are definitely a sign of regression in the morale of south africans and the fact that there are people like you that condone it, is just well.. SAD.
btw you are yet to display any signs of wit, or even a hint of logic in your argument. Khutsong is yet another sign of south africans not willing to work within the correct measures and systems that have been put in place for them to express their discontent. that lets burn down our trains because there is no electricity type mentality. and these are some of the actions that Bullard has in the past successfully bashed and condemned, its a pity it came to this for him. Like I said I think that shooting must have had a serious effect on him. Maybe he must stick to writing about cars for now.
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 11:53
Jacoba,
Clearly Voudouchilde can’t offer any logic to his/her points or arguements, so I doubt there will be a scrap.
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 12:04
Voudouchilde,
I would like you to give me one reference to a black person being termed a “racist” in any forum - written or otherwise. Just one. I can give you thousands of examples of whites being called that.
You talk about my voting for whom I want to. The ANC can’t lose an election simply because of the demographics of the country. Black people don’t vote for change - they simply vote the same way and then, as you put it - burn trains etc. in the hope that that will bring the changes that they want. You say black people still suffer the most yet it doesn’t change their vote, does it?
The fact is, before white settlers came to Africa, it was far less advanced than it is now - THAT is the point David was making and it is true - simple as that.
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 13:22
I would like you to give me one reference to a black person being termed a “racist” in any forum - written or otherwise. Just one. I can give you thousands of examples of whites being called that.
———-
and your point is? y must i do this little research for you? who do u think you are? u asked me if a black person can be racist and the answer is YES, indians and coloreds and infact anyone can be. Im sure you can give me thousands of eg.s of articles on white racism, we have certainly experienced enuff of that. i can give you plenty of examples of personal experiences of my own suffering at the hands of white racists. can you give me any personal accounts of yours from black racists? You accuse me of being in denial yet u seem to live in some kinda warped reality where white people have been victimized and everyone is conspiring against your kind.
Bullard’s account of the history of South Africa is the most twisted uneducated, hateful, ignorant piece of crap he has ever written and I will bet you 10 ront that he knows it. He is a smart man, and he cant be proud of that rubbish he wrote. The article puts him out there as a white supremacist, a typical PW Botha type character who believes that the white man came to Africa and rescued the black savages from themselves, and their apparent damnation to hell, by indoctrinating them to christianity and mcdonalds burgers. David Bullard has been rightfully fired, and he should by all accounts reflect on this pile of hatred he put out and maybe reconsider his future here in Africa.
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 13:41
I don’t need to do the research and nor do you as you know full well that you will not find a single example of a black person being termed a “racist”. Also, I wasn’t asking you to research that - you avert the point by asking about the research and “who do you think you are?” because you know full well that neither of us could ever find such an example - that was my point.
The whole country is being victimized with regards to crime - I didn’t say it only affects whites, now did I?
With regard to your further account of David’s story, I give you 5 examples :- Zimbabwe, Rwanda, Kenya, Equatorial Guinea and Sudan. You say people on this continent aren’t savage. Ever heard of anyone in modern times in either the US or Europe that was murdered for daring to vote for an opposing party? You don’t get ethnic cleansing there either.
I am not a Christian (I have an aversion to organised religion) and I don’t think David referred to any religion in his article.
Try sticking to the facts - that may help.
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 13:51
Read the other side of the story: It wasn’t racism that burnt Bullard’s bridges
http://www.bizcommunity.c...Article/196/15/23692.html
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 14:07
Bad bad satire, very bad satire.
I’m not too concerned about whether or not he was axed for this but there certainly are much smarter ways to make the undoubtedly controversial point he might have been trying to make….perhaps he skipped his triple expresso and went for a pale substitute low fat mocha which lead to a delusional state.
It has sparked a large amount of commentary, so perhaps in
“Journalism” terms he’s done his job.
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 14:27
Only about a month or 2 ago the FBJ was accused of being racist in the media. what is your point? Have you ever heard of anyone in SA in modern times being murdered for voting for the opposition? Its called freedom guy and we have it, and we need to protect it.
These countries you mention your USA/UK do you know anything about them, do you know anything about the world today? have you heard of IRAQ / Palestine ? do you know the history of Sudan? or Ivory Coast? or the Congo? have you ever heard of blood diamonds? Have your read about a deuchebag called King Leopald? or Ian Smith do you know of a guy called George Bush?have you heard about Tony Blair?
If you rape a child or abuse them you can expect by all means that they may grow up to be pretty effd up adults but hopefully with the right counselling and nurturing they might grow up to become decent adults, this is the story of Africa, raped by its colonizers whose descendants then sit at their laptops and write KAK. SA may be in Africa but we have a choice, we get to decide which route we wona take, but all this finger-pointing is not gona take us anywhere, articles like that wont eitha.
I never said you where a christian nor do i care. I also neva accused you of saying white people are the only victims of crime, I just said we are all victims.
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 14:57
Ok… so you managed the one and only example - congratulations! I bet you had to think real hard about that one.
I wonder where the response is to the five African countries I mentioned where people kill each other daily just because they are different. And yes, I know the histories of all the countries mentioned and a fair bit about the world today.
Everyone in a democracy has the freedom to vote for whom they want to - just in many African countries you can be killed for it. My point was, this doesn’t happen in the US or Europe.
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 15:07
Andrew, my point is they may not kill ea other in Europe or Americah but they do plenty of senseless killing outside their countries eitha that or they support it, hence my mention of Iraq or Palestine.
That does not make these countries any less savage than African countries. Sorry guy, white people are not smarter, less savage, nor superior to black people. we can argue about this the whole day, but history will prove you wrong. the future even more so.
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 15:26
I don’t think I said white people are “smarter, less savage, or superior”. Nor did David. We are just different and have different priorities.
You accuse me of being a racist, yet I am lily white and in a relationship with a black person.
Iraq was about getting rid of a dictator who murdered his own people. Palestine is a joke - if they just stopped their extremists and senseless bombings of civilians, they would get what they supposedly want - but this begs the question - what do they really want? Palestine is not a country and never was.
But, as you say… we could argue all day, but quite frankly, I can’t be bothered…
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 15:35
Excuse, me - er… er… May I? Did any one of you read Bullard in the old days? When he ripped the old government to shreds? I am sure he is sitting somewhere, rather comfortably, having a really good laugh at the reaction he did manage to evoke!!!! He is a satirist - and that is what they do. Make acerbic comments, take digs and laugh at just about anything. As I said, earlier - did anybody get the dig at the Chinese - and really understand what he was saying. I did, I think - and most of you seem to be interpreting it quite differently, so I would really like to hear?
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 15:37
If David didnt say those things then why was he fired? why are having this convo? is it really monday today? u are delusional guy! btw I neva accused you of being racist. U are very wrong about Iraq and Palestine like most things uve commented on today.
Congratulations on hitting that black bootey, like ur ancestors u have discovered the heart of Africa my friend!
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 16:34
Dear Voudouchilde (great song, by the way), I agree with what you are saying, basically. It is what I have been saying for some time now.
What happened in this country in the past was messed up. No doubt. It was the white man who was responsible, and fortunately the vast majority of the perpetrators are dead and buried.
We are in a New era, and we can make excuses and point fingers and fling mud till the cows come home, if we don’t knuckle down and work together we WILL become another Zim, Kenya, Congo, etc etc etc…
So to all racists, black and white, please piss off and let those of us who are committed to making it work get on with it.
I am a Christian, by the way. We are not so bad.
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 16:40
Yay, Sicovit!!!!! Love your last 2 para’s - in short, that is what we should all say and lets lose all that bloody baggage. Enough already.
I am also a Christian - and I know they aren’t that bad. Filthy mouths, though.
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 17:12
Yeah, sorry
I get a little worked up though.
It’s like we are so close, sooooooooo close to becoming what we can be. If Zim can get rid of that sphincter Mugabe, and they can get their country working too, we could provide food for the entire continent, as well as economic stability and growth.
That’s the preferred future I dream of. Each country on the continent coming right, one by one, from SA upwards.
Fiji did as big an around turn in 2000/2001, and they are in an unprecedented time of peace and growth.
(They had a HUGE revival there, and the leadership of the country submitted itself to Christ, turned from their idolatry, and POW, God honours those who honour Him.)
Dig it!
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 18:02
No man - I wasn’t pointing at YOU alone. I had my own face squarely in the pic. I dream of an SA like that as well - as do most South Africans, methinks. It can be done - we are an amaaaaaazzzzing people, and if we could just get rid of the trash (those damned racists)
and other scumbags like corrupt criminals, corrupt politicians, corrupt civil servants, corrupt …. corrupt …… corrupt - you get the pic?
And, you will be surprised how many intelligent people there are in this country - God fearing and God believing and …….. - dunno how to give you my email address then we can chat about that somewhere else - don’t want to use a public forum for my personal feelings. Like Andrew (whom I respect, actually) and Voudouchilde (whom I respect, also) - who, by now are probably irritated beyond belief.
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 18:12
Voudouchilde,
Yes, I must clearly wrong about Iraq and Palestine:
Fact: The Iraq war got rid of Saddam (who murdered several of his own people).
Fact: Palestine was never a country.
So which part am I wrong about?
You will say anything that suits you at the time whether true or not, clearly - and I am the delusional one? It’s because of people like you that this country is in the mess that it’s in.
I bet you don’t think there is a crisis in Zimbabwe either, rather like our esteemed president.
You’re a joke and as I said before, I can’t be bothered with people who refuse to see the truth…
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 18:14
Voudouchilde,
Addendum: if you want to make wild sweeping statements, you should have facts to back them up - rather like mine.
Let’s see you give that a try - I bet you can’t.
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 20:13
Ag Nooooo!
This was the best topic ever! We are at 62 comments so far. There have been many stars here. Andrew, Voudouchilde, Gareth, Daved, Judy, Bergens, Hester are the leading lights in my opinion - though I could have missed out on a point or two. Have already wasted quite a bit of time today, but then I am sick & indisposed ….. I think Andrew will win with Voudouchilde a very close second. Voudouchilde, you got a bit too angry too often (always a bad idea). Oh yes, Sicovit is the best at assessing a situation & carrying on and should be able to cut through the crap the quickest. In short, the poor everywhere in all countries & during all centuries always suffer, the old South African regime was as sick and disgusting as the Nazi’s, the Japanese, the Vietnamese & all those Asian guys, the Spaniards, the Brits, that sicko Belgian King who used the Congo as human hunting grounds are all still in our collective memories and so we can go on. Racism is alive and well and kicking in our country (as in many other countries) & we just can’t seem to leave it behind us so that we can go on and grow on. Education is vital, otherwise we will just continue down the path to extinction and Mugabe is a complete idiot with our president running a close second (and I was gobsmacked at his I am an African speech). AND, the thing that started it all - Sunday Times should have fired there editor & not one of the journalists. The Editor should have taken enough interest in his own job and his own newspaper and made damned sure that something offensive wasn’t printed in the first place. Whether we agree or don’t agree with what David said should not be the issue. The issue should be whether the head of the newspaper did his job or not.
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 20:22
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/35/181.html Dunno If I am allowed to do this, but Voudouchilde brought this up & its something we should all know. History that should really not be forgotten - the swine even beat Hitler - maybe that is what Mugabe is aspiring to, with our president and his silent democracy following in the wake of Goebels.
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 22:46
I think David Bullard wrote an incredibly funny satirical piece. Yes, it pokes fun at black people, but the satire is laid on so thick that it’s nearly impossible to miss the humour.
Satire, however, always homes in on people’s weak spots - the things they tend to care deeply about - and so whiles it amuses some, it also offends many others.
Bullard was fired because his editor took offence. I think most black people would find it offensive. At least initially. On second thoughts, some may get the joke and laugh it off as it was intended to be.
I don’t know if his topic can lead to serious debate. Bullard presented such an obviously skewed variation of reality filled with conjecture and assumption that it’s impossible to take anything out of his article except a good laugh, in my opinion.
Monday, 14 April 2008, at 23:14
Touche Richard!
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 01:31
At last, calm prevails. Thanks Richard and good night.
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 10:29
Hey Gareth,
I only just read what you wrote and I think it’s the closest thing to the truth on this page. Blacks allow their leaders to force them into underachievement. These leaders have an embarrassing superiority complex - as royalty did in times gone by - on this continent and elsewhere. Remember the French revolution?
Congratualtions Gareth - if more of the man in the street thought the way you did, this continent would be the super power of the world - as it should be!
For some reason, true democracy is little understood in Africa - a leader is there to SERVE YOU, the people. Once elected here, African leaders are treated like gods - it’s no wonder that that is what they actually think they are!
In times gone by failing Japanese officials would take their own lives rather than face the embarrassment of failure. On this continent, leaders revel in their failure and their people praise them unequivocally.
There isn’t a country outside of Africa that would not have strung Manto up for her uselessness. Mbeki and his constant denialism (about almost every issue) is a complete joke e.g. AIDS, Zimbabwe. In actual terms, both of these people are murderers - simple as that - just because they are in governent doesn’t excuse them - they are killers.
I have a British passport but am still here because I have always had faith in the continent and don’t want to leave. Yet, every day people like Mbeki open their mouths and say things that PROVE exactly why it’s in the mess that it’s in.
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 10:41
I can already read the cries of “racist” before they even appear here - I mean… I am white, and criticising blacks - therefore I MUST be a racist, no? The issues themselves are never actually an issue.
That line of thought is what is killing this continent - how about instead of just crying “racist” and blaming colonialism all the time, actually DO something about the problems. There are still millions of people that actually (rigging aside) really do vote for Robert Mugabe - what does it take for them to learn?
I wait with bated breath.
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 11:01
Just a note to say that it wasn’t the said article that got Bullard axed, and it wasn’t anything to do with racism either; it was, in fact, his horribly broken bridges within the Sunday Times, created largely by himself and his unhappiness with various aspects related to his motoring columns and so on.
In short, the column was merely a facade.
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 11:04
hmmm… I wonder if he already knew what was coming when he wrote it…
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 11:40
i think i white man was given a chance to rule this country.. what did he achieve: whites messed up the country and today talk about democracy, freedom of speech.. did you have that before the ANC came to power.. you had a Junta, you were shunned by the international community.. you had few embassies.. get real.. you called Mandela a communist and now that the world homour him.. you change your tune.. sies.. we will get you..
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 11:48
Yeah Swart… that’s a progressive way to think - it’s bound to make a success of this continent. People like YOU, not colonialism, are why we don’t progress to super power status.
Look at the Jews as an example - half the world’s Jewish population was eradicated just 60 years ago - yet look at how they (generally) have thrived now. You know why this happened? Because they put the past behind them and got on with business, and life.
Try doing some work dude, to make this place a success, instead of harping on the past and resting on those laurels. You use the past as an excuse to NOT succeed - how pathetic is that?
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 11:54
tell you racist brothers to respect our govt.. blacks have no problem with you until you start blaming their govt as if you did a better job..
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 12:11
Swart,
I can’t believe how blind anger makes people.
I have two questions for you and bet you don’t have the guts to answer:
Is there currently a crisis in Zimbabwe?
Does HIV cause AIDS?
I dare you to answer!
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 12:26
I’m not sure if this discussion completely depresses me or gives me hope in that it allows for a forum for people to express their opinions away from the Politically-Correct-punting outside world which values keeping up appearances…perhaps neither but, whatever the case may be, you’re all very entertaining.
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 12:29
what are you getting at.. i cant believe you want to compare your atrocities with stupidity.. the fact of the matter is your are the bad guys, Verwoerd once said that ‘if the world does not want to play with, you will play with yourselves’.. now hows that.. you guys were supposed to be wanking right now.. the ANC saved you and now your boerewors eating bastards can play international rugby again
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 12:45
okay okay okay - swartsak!!!!! Can we lose that hatred, already!!!!! The parents of some of us were the bad guys! Mine certainly weren’t - and there are a lot of us whose parents weren’t and I think that your comments there are a wee bit dof! Let us all be a tad more specific, here. The Jews did it right, they found the bastards that actually DID the nasty deeds and killed them right back. They didnt go after the entire German nation. Now don’t you dare tell me that the SA atrocities were worse than the nast NAZI atrocities, because you will merely prove that your are, in fact, the idiot that your professing to be. LEARN from Madiba & lose the Mugabe act, here. My goodness gracious me - I didnt want to get mad in this type of forum, but you have just one the prize for managing. Now, why don’t you go to your dictionary, find the proper explanation for each word and come back and be specific in your requirements. Let go on from there. Silly little man that you seem to be.
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 13:01
Silly indeed…
And he can’t answer my questions… because then he is admitting to his stupidity.
And as you say Jacob, my parents (both highly educated professionals) were doorknockers for the PFP - how sad they must be to see this country now. As sad as Nelson Mandela is.
As you say - let’s get on with it instead of constantly placing blame.
Blacks run the country, colonialism is dead - so what’s their excuse now?
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 13:19
you right..The Jews killed the Nazis.. maybe thats what we missed.. food for thought.. Talk about moving on.. how can we when you shoot down every attempt by the govt to level the playing field.. AA, BEE.. you call them racism.. you have to admit that you have been given a headstart and its still your people who racists.. Skielik and UFS.. give me one incident of Blacks being racist on whites.. so stop the ‘forget the past’ crab.. the wounds are still raw and the Jews too never forgot the Holocaust, so why should we, but then the Jews started afresh without the enemy.. we on the other hand are stuck with the enemy..
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 13:31
Zimbabwe got rid of most of its whites - and aren’t they doing great?
Why don’t you move there as there are so few whites around?
Or you could try Equatorial Guinea, Sudan or Rwanda (also very few of the “enemy” there).
You’re a blinkered idiot.
In case you don’t know what blinkered means - use a dictionary - you know what that is?
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 13:33
Oh… yeah… the Jews beat the Nazis but that’s exactly the point -the Nazis were a minority in Germany - just as the people who ran the apartheid government were here.
Can you tell the difference?
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 13:44
the Nazis were not a minority… the Jews were and they killed the Nazis using Mossard (Israeli Secret Service, idiot). thats why im saying the reason is still full of the white scum is in that the blacks did not seek vengence.. and now its haunting them.. Mandela made a very big mistake and i believe that we are sitting on a time-bomb and this time blacks wont be the victims..
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 14:05
Oh.. the Nazis weren’t a minority? Where did you get that fact? Did you just make it up as you wrote it?
If they weren’t, are you saying that most Germans were Nazis? If so, did the Secret Service kill most of Germany? I think not. And I am the idiot?
Something I have said a few times here - try using facts to back up your agruements - not wild, sweeping, non-factual drivel. Are you so full of hate that you can’t even think straight? How depressing a life that must be.
You are warped - again, the dictionary may help you with a meaning.
I notice that you don’t dare respond to my saying that the people that ran apartheid were a minority too - you can’t because you know that is a fact.
Also, you can’t comment on the other African countries I mentioned because they are in such a mess and there are almost no whites to blame for it.
You are gonna die a bitter, sad man if you don’t get off your ass and actually do something to make this country as great as it should be. I know I am doing what I can - have you ever considered it?
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 14:19
its hard to find a white who supported apartheid these days.. very rare they should be declared ‘endangered species’. we should round them up and put them in museums… we should have emulated the Jews and wiped out the minority.. thats our mistake and we will live to regret it.. what are you doing for the country.. you should have done that 20 years ago.. stop talking about corruption and crime as if its something new..
June 16 1976 and Sharpeville Massacre are the greatest crimes.. lets talk about them.. and as you write your next post.. take a minute to appreciate this luxury.. it was not possible during your rule.. the police would come knocking on your door.. call that civilised.. Freedom of expression..??
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 14:20
Oh Sak, you are an idiot.
Again, if the time bomb you speak of does go off, prepare to have your ass handed back to you.
There is a reason that white people succeed where ever they find themselves, in what ever situation.
We are tough, resilient, hard working, intelligent and resourceful. That’s why, even in Zim, there are still white people living and growing.
Who are you going to blame when your petty “Night of the Long Knives” ends with us on top again?
I’m sure you could blame colonialism for bringing steel onto the continent, or just blame the white person for defending themselves.
You have no place here.
You should think about leaving, not just because you are warmongering hate-speaker, but also because you are bringing the country’s collective IQ down by staying here.
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 14:36
I would be a supporter of apartheid, if apartheid meant keeping me separate from a spanner like you, Sak.
The reason you have difficulty in finding Apartheid supporters now days is that they are all dead, for the most part, and the next generation (which is us) are New South Africans, black, white, brown and every shade in between. I think your anger comes from the dawning realisation that your days of being able to blame people are running out. If we get over it and move forward, you won’t have the White Racist Bastards to blame, you will have to take responsibility for your own short comings!
Shock shock horror horror!
You are not contributing in any way, you are a waste of desperately needed space, I’m sure we won’t miss your skills, so, don’t let the door hit you in the ass when you leave.
Bye-bye.
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 14:38
Jews didn’t beat the Nazis, the western world did. And Jews didn’t kill the Nazis, they took them to court, same as South Africans did. And the Jews didn’t (and don’t) forget - and they don’t let anyone else forget either; we also remember, it’s our heritage - the good, the bad, and the ugly.
BUT
What the Jews are NOT doing, is blaming the Nazis for everything that goes wrong for them today. Would be nice if we could be that way.
We gots a long way to go, Baby, but I believe we’ll make it.
And Gareth, don’t you want to come run the ANCYL? Or SA’s moral de- (oops!) regeneration programme?
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 14:50
Checkit, dudes, the “cool” smiley is based on David Bullard
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 14:51
sicovit.. the people who supported apartheid are dead.. so you are the new breed.. hmm.. i wonder where the UFS and Tukkies students get their racist ideas.. talk about the Skielik murderer who pleaded not guilty to killing blacks… hmm.. you are all the beneficiaries of apartheid and don’t Hendrik Verwoerd cos you voted for him..
Reserve the moral regeneration to your parents so that they can accept that things are no longer as they were in their tym..
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 14:55
Yeah Swart,
They said it for me - your days of blaming our forefathers are over.
Get off your ass and do something practical.
Amazing that you don’t respond to my pertinent points - is it cos you don’t understand them or that you just have no logical response.
Hate will never get you anywhere - you are a useless oxygen thief. Most blacks would be embarrassed by your comments - those with a brain, that is.
Yeah Gareth - we need to get people like you into government. Then the useless masses that do nothing but place blame may just have to pull finger.
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 14:58
Oh.. and Swart - I think you should write your comments in Word before you copy and paste here - your spelling and syntax are as embarrassing as your views.
I didn’t vote for Hendrik, he was long gone when I came around.
I am not the racist that you clearly are. You asked for an example of a black racist - you need look no further than in the mirror, dude.
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 15:23
tell me what are your views of the Skielik and UFS.. im dying to here…
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 15:51
Oh dearie me - all these comments and I havent been here. Okay, lets go. For starters it’s Jacoba, I am a she (now you can blame women, Swartsak, for something. I am sure you will think something up). I don’t care who runs the country, colour wise, as long as they are CAPABLE. Just to comment on some of the comments. No Swartsak, the Jews did not just go out and kill all the Nazi’s. The targeted only those THAT WERE RESPONSIBLE in an intelligent manner & then used due process. Want me to explain that to you? Er hum … maybe you should re’think your comment “show me one incident of blacks being racists on whites” - spelling, spelling, tut tut. And you are being??? Not racist?? Explain to me, Swartsak, how I have been given a headstart in life? I would love to hear that. I also think that you should wait a bit with the Nazi/Jewish comments and go and read a few history books (or the internet is an excellent source of information) so that you can learn a bit first. I hate to tell you that you do not have a clue what you are talking about - so much show that you are quite funny. Andrew, you are getting too angry - he isn’t well. Okay Swartsak, the Mossad was not used to to KILL the Nazi’s. Where on earth did you hear that. Actually, I was being a bit, oops - have to find a word that you will understand, here - sarcastic okay for you - and I did not mean that the Jews actually went out and KILLED the Nazi’s. They used due process and the courts put them in prisons and threw the key away. (Also figurative). BUT WHEN YOU SAY ONE THING AGAINST MADIBA YOU ANNOY ME. You truly are a little little little little man. Do you have a little moustache? I am sure you go home at night and pray to Mugabe. Andrew, dont get angry with him - you should know about inciting these people - you get them all upset and then they could just pick up a match & you know what they can do with those. Swartsak, I am finding it difficult to believe now that you are a real person. Touche Sicovit. The man, cannot be for real. A sangoma maybe? Jeepers Swartsak - now you want to use Bloemfontein and Skierlik - goodness me. Are you running out now. Blast - no more history to hang on to. What a bugger. And in closing, great on the spelling Andrew. Word will do it for him.
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 15:53
Again… no response to my valid points.
You’re dying to ‘here’? Wouldn’t you rather ‘hear’?
Spellcheck dude, spellcheck.
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 15:55
If I thought I could have an intelligent conversation with you Swart, then I would.
But clearly that’s not possible - you are simply too unintelligent.
Facts speak for themselves - something you seem to want to ignore. You should go out for a drink with bar buddies Manto and Thabo and kill what little brain cells you have left.
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 16:01
Hey Jacoba,
Yeah.. you are right about my getting angry - but I don’t suffer fools gladly.
It also frustrates me to no end that this country could be GREAT, but because of people like Swart, it isn’t. The saddest part is that there are millions like him out there.
I will try to keep my eotions in check.
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 16:02
That’s erm… ‘eMotions’ - my m is a bit dodgy - buggery bollocksy Miscroscum keyboard!
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 16:10
hehehe - get an apple, Andrew. But one does get riled up & type at enormous speeds. That happens. i typed just now, going through a zillion mails. (Correction Swart, I did not go through a zillion, actually - it was figurative little little little man.) Back to a normal conversation ….. I often get warnings here that I have to check my spelling but I simply ignore them in the heat of the moment. However, do you think Swart is real? If not, where does he find all this?
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 16:10
intelligent conversation.. i know what i stand for.. you are inciting violence… maybe i should go to the graves and have a drink with Verwoerd.. he is the one missing braincells.. check my website
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 16:22
You have a website Swartsak??? My goodness me. And you did it all by yourself. Clever man. Shudder, Verwoerd/Hitler/Verwoerd/Hitler - who was worse? MMMmmmm - let me think. I can’t. Give me a day. I would love to see you do it, though. Amazing. Quantum scientists will have fun with this - it will be like have a conversation with a neutrino, wouldn’t it Swartsak?
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 16:23
have any of you ever visited sasucks.co.za… can you comment on that crap..
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 16:24
Although, like you Verwoerd couldn’t have had a soul - so the two of you would get on famously. Two soulless people. What fun!
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 16:32
ok Jacoba,, im not a racist.. its just that i find comments on the net that are very disturbing especially coming from the very people whom we expected to be the one offering the olive branch but instead its the other way round. blacks never act.. they only react… if whites stop being racist.. this country will be better of.. i do have a website but you will never find racist comments or me lambasting whites.. its just a website to help blacks realise their potential and start doing things for themselves.. i have a newspaper too… i just hope you educate your people to change their mentality because you are not doing us any favours.. and a white man is no better than me. whites started WWII.. now who is crazy..
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 16:33
My goodness Jacoba - have you seen that website? I thought I was reading the Daily Sun where one reads headlines like “Alien Stole My Baby And Cooked Him In A Pooitjie”!
Who subs that for you Swart? I hope it’s someone who spells better than you.
How many poor people do you know that have benefited from BEE? All the guys that got governemnt contracts are million/billionaires, but the poor got nada (that’s not English, Swart, in case you were wondering).
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 16:34
No Swartsak, I use the time available to me for relaxation, relaxing. Reading a book, have conversations with friends, translating stuff for people (love doing that), reading more books, cooking …….. You? Ooooo I forgot. You are in your room praying to Mugabe.
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 16:48
Do I really have to Andrew?? I’ll just take your word for it. And thanks for not ignoring me Swart, I understand that you are angry - but if YOU have a website, you should learn to rule your tongue. I am glad that your website is so fine, but what is your website the sasucks one? And your newspaper is….? You cannot possibly be in charge of something with an attitude like that. What example are you? You have just made an absolute arse of yourself here and you are supposed to be the example? You are what everyone sees - does that incite peace? You use Madiba for your anger? A world icon? Not good enough for you? He UNITED this country. We ALL love him, unreservedly and this whole country will stand up like one man and follow him. (And those few that won’t, will be trampled anyway, so they can stay seated.) Heavens little man, you can’t do that!!! Grow up and learn things. The ABC, read books, learn the histories of your great kings and your great forefathers. Instill the positive. Fight for story books in your own languages (my godchild is a Xhosa & I cannot find stories for her in her native tongue. Why not? Why don’t you get riled up about that? Black children cannot learn about their own forefathers, they cannot hear the most beautiful stories read to them. WHY NOT? Use your website and your newspaper to DO something positive. Now, I have one helluva list of things that NEED to be done. Why just do the shit you are doing now? Become a real man.
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 17:16
Wow, Jacoba…..
If I wasn’t married, I’d ask you out on a date!
“…We ALL love him, unreservedly and this whole country will stand up like one man and follow him. (And those few that won’t, will be trampled anyway, so they can stay seated.)…”
That’s poetic, Greek tragedy type stuff….
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 18:12
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 19:14
And once again, Mr Swart will have no response and say something stupid about… wait a second… who can he muster up - think he’s heard of Starlin?
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 19:15
And yes… the spelling error was deliberate that time…
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 21:21
Ok so i am new to these sort of debates and i am glad i found a place where i can debate issues.
Thinkitthru - No i dont want to join the anc youth league. My problem is i do not do well with stupidity.
Andrew. No i do not want to work in Goverment. My wife is a politition and i see what she goes through and how the system works. Goverment has the intention of doing all these amazing things but has no idea how to go about it. The name of the game is these guys know they are in for only a limited of time before they are found out that they are incompetent, and therefore have to make the most money before the game is up.
I would like to debate 2 issues. Not sure how to start a new thread but they are:
What exactly is a raciest. What is the defination.
The other debate is.
How would i debate these issues if i was a black. In otherwords i would like to put myself in a black guys shoes and debate issues and still be proud of been black.
Does this make sense.
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 21:37
Gareth, I think that you are being genuine, so I will give you my opinion only. This forum is usually created on a daily basis when we all get the Trash Media article in the morning. We then debate whatever is being discussed, but it usually ends up in a racist debate - we are still a young democracy and we are learning how to live with one another. We WILL get there - I firmly believe that - we are all South Africans. The father of our new nation is Mandela and we are united in our love for him, and finally - deep down inside, we really all love one another and if there were an outside threat, I believe, you would be surprised how we would look after one another. No questions asked.
I am rather embarrassed at hour little outbursts in front of people from other nations, but I am sure you have them too. What is a racist? My opinion? I think a racist is anyone (from any nation) that cannot approve of, tolerate, accept, respect or honor another person from any other nation. The colour is not the issue here. Eg, something discussed here earlier, the Jews and Germans. Basically and intolerant, uneducated idiot. I don’t think that it has anything to do with intelligence - Hitler was very intelligent - I read his book “Mine Kampf” - what a bloody bore - but I had to in order to understand the thing that he was. (He was definitely mad in the end). My answer to your second question: I always believe that you have to debate 1) either honestly as you believe or 2) if you want to take the piss, then take any side & be who you want and take which ever side you want. BUT BE CONSTANT. It is very confusing when someone constantly changes persona and he/she is quickly ignored. Since this IS trash media, we do (as do I :evil:) very often take the piss - especially when something just gets too damned heated. Yes - you do make sense and your arguments have been good - I have been reading you. Looking forward to have many sparring sessions with you.
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 21:42
Oh my goeie griet, excuse the spelling guys - pleeeze pleeeze pleeeze don’t arrest me, Messrs Spelling Police!!! (And me, an honorary member too!)
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 22:08
How do i get the morning trah media article
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 22:46
subscribe. Trashmedia.co.za - log on & subscribe. Its free & it makes getting up worth it.
Wednesday, 16 April 2008, at 02:29
hmmm… Does anyone actually read what we write here?
Wednesday, 16 April 2008, at 02:30
Or is it just us getting enlightened?
Oh, Jacoba, we all make typos - keyboards are not perfect, you know?
Wednesday, 16 April 2008, at 07:04
Andrew - its TRASH!!!!!
Wednesday, 16 April 2008, at 08:07
Gareth,
A racist is someone that discriminates based on racial prejudice, at the very core of a racist’s thinking there lies an assumption that there are taxonomic differences between different races of people, e.g whites are more intelligent than blak people.
I don’t get your second point tho, u want to debate how u’d debate racism if u where black? no you are not making any sense guy. But how do u feel about racism in SA? do u find it disheartening does it make you angry? have u eva experienced racism? are you a racist?
Wednesday, 16 April 2008, at 09:27
…I now feel like this is akin to a parliamentary debate…
Wednesday, 16 April 2008, at 09:33
…and Andrew yip someone else has been reading…quietly but still keeping up with the Tour
Wednesday, 16 April 2008, at 09:47
Andrew doesnt want it with me Dons, if u where refering to me that is.
Wednesday, 16 April 2008, at 10:40
Nope in 121 I wasn’t referring to you, I was referring to myself reading all the comms that have been added (re comment 116).
Wednesday, 16 April 2008, at 10:41
ma bad! Dons
Wednesday, 16 April 2008, at 10:42
What?
Wednesday, 16 April 2008, at 10:43
I am confused… what is it that I don’t want?
Wednesday, 16 April 2008, at 14:57
Swartsak is very confused!
“swart_sak
Tuesday, 15 April 2008, at 16:32
ok Jacoba,, im not a racist.. ”
then from his “own” website http://www.turningpoint.o...ew&id=6&Itemid=26:
# I will love and respect myself, my family and people of my race
# I will deliberately and at all times support the self-interest of Black people first
are your black “buddies” in government not looking after you that you have say:
# We shall promote and enforce our constitutional to right safety, security and protection from the state
oh boy you need to read your own website:
# We shall contribute towards the promotion of the practice of benevolence and care in our communities.
I wish you would just go away. You are of no use to this country. I will ask Bob to take you in. You have enough hate to be allowed into the African power house of Zim.